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Apartments don’t just sell themselves. You might have tons of natural light, a modern chef’s kitchen and be located near transportation, but, then again, so is your competitor’s place. So then real estate agents and developers must reach in to their bag of marketing tricks.

Staging an apartment is probably the easiest, and most effective, way to hook renters. As all writers know, the most difficult thing about writing anything–book, article, grocery list–is staring down that black screen. Once something–anything–is on that page, it becomes a lot easier. Same goes for apartments. Blank walls are terrifying. Add some beautiful paintings, not to mention a nice couch and some tables, to a model apartment, and suddenly people can picture their own furniture being there, plus additional ways to decorate.

There’s the well-known real estate agent strategy: Bake cookies before perspective buyers or renters come visit the property. It can transform a run-of-the-mill house into a home, subconsciously taking people back to the comfort and safety of their homes when they were kids. Plus it’s an almost universally appealing smell that only people with hearts of stone could resist.

That’s not the only way to get people to sign on that dotted lease line. It seems, at least in New York, that cocktail parties in the apartments are de rigueur. People get to relax and see what it would be like to entertain there. Plus, a little bubbly always improves people’s moods.

And, of course, every apartment needs a good story. Was it designed by Frank Lloyd Wright? Maybe the building was a former hotel where royalty and starlets alike checked in (if you happen to have JFK and Marilyn Monroe’s alleged love nest, you’ve hit real estate pay dirt). Or perhaps it’s a one-of-a-kind, never-before-seen type place.

But why would a good story be necessary to sell or rent an apartment, especially in the midst of a national housing crisis where vacancy rates are notoriously low? This strategy probably works best for luxury housing units, where the people have many, many options. A good apartment story gives renters that little something everyone yearns for: bragging rights.

Sometimes, it’s not even the apartment itself that is marketed, but the real estate agent. As recently reported on MHN, NYC’s most expensive rental is going on the market (at a mere $165,000 a month), and its real estate agent is the daughter of a celebrity. Again, this leads back to bragging rights. Who wouldn’t want to throw a dinner party for friends in their new home and casually mention, “Oh, do you like the place? James Bond’s daughter got me such a great deal.”

What are some of the strategies you employ to make your buildings especially desirable for perspective buyers and renters?

-Jessica Fiur, News Editor

A few years ago, I had no idea what creme fraiche was. I didn’t know beets could be made into foam (or why anyone would want them to be. I’m actually still trying to figure this one out). Actually, to be honest, I didn’t even know how to boil an egg. Seriously. Don’t judge.

But all that changed with the influx of cooking shows such as “Top Chef,” “Iron Chef,” “Diners, Drive Ins and Dives”…the list goes on. Suddenly I don’t just know how to cook, but I want to. And it’s not just me. Everyone watches these shows now, and everyone is yearning to be a foodie.

This gourmet explosion, where everyone thinks they can earn five Michelin stars in their own home, has lead to an interesting multifamily phenomenon: the chef’s kitchen.

A quick Google search for “chef’s kitchen apartment” yields 13,800,000 results. It is a major amenity touted in all the new luxury condominiums and apartments. There is clearly a demand for stainless steel appliances, dual sinks, tons of counter space, multiple burners on the stove…

Will this real estate trend last, or will a chef’s kitchen go the way of the dodo (or, more accurately, the avocado-colored refrigerator) if new shows become popular—after all, the summer Olympics are coming up. Maybe lap pools (or, for the obscenely rich, humongous bath tubs) will become all the rage and the must-have amenity for new developments.

Ultimately, I wonder if these chef’s kitchens are actually being used for their intended purpose by the residents, especially in cities such as New York where it’s just as—if not more—convenient to order delivery as it is to roast a chicken. Honestly, while I may know what molecular gastronomy is now, I’m still more likely to pick up some sushi on the way home than to whip up my own spicy tuna with wasabi foam.

Do you include chef’s kitchens in your buildings? Have you seen an influx of requests for them?

-Jessica Fiur, News Editor

In the beginning it was great, like true love—so exciting and cozy. I couldn’t wait to get home, to be there, the newness of it all, the way it made me feel, all tingly inside, like a hug after a long journey. Then it started to get to me—the noise, which was a cacophony of chatter, chirps and humming. Oh how I hated the humming, even thinking once that a quick whack with a frying plan would stop it permanently, but the consequences of that were too much to consider. I really don’t know how I got sucked into this relationship, what with all of the choices I had and those sweet talking helpers along the way, all promising paradise if

I just took this one big step. I’d never been much of a commitment guy and this step was something I’d considered but never really felt was necessary. I’d gotten along fine with the endless stream of others and all had been for laughs and never made any demands, but this one…this one was different. I just had to have it and knew it would be the end of me. So after much thought and some soul searching I sought out my friends at the local pub and asked the age-old question, how did it go this wrong, this fast? “It was her fault,” they implied with a knowing glance, the sidelong kind that tells you they think you’re a moron for not seeing it sooner. I suppose it was the age, all young and fresh and so hip, the coolest ever that really convinced me, but I soon learned that age does not equate with charm or comfort. It was time, and after a year of hoping against the odds that this was the one, the keeper, the last special I’d ever want I finally realized it was over.

And with that decision came the long arduous walk to the leasing center where I gave notice I wasn’t renewing my apartment lease. The magic of fresh appliances and smooth shimmering counter-tops gave way to mocking glances of a refrigerator that delighted in only making noises for me, an oven that loved raw food and wouldn’t fail when the technician looked at it, the washing machine, smugly leaving little signatures of compressor oil, which all mysteriously disappeared when I went to ask for repairs. I knew this was goodbye.

I went back to my apartment and right after opening the door, I tripped on the carpet that hadn’t been stretched in months and thought I heard a gentle giggle as I fell down. Somehow they all knew, and soon it would be over, my next journey in search of the perfect apartment without which I’d once again feel a victim of lax maintenance and unreturned calls. But it was time.

Jack Kern is the research editor of Multihousing News and Commercial Property Executive. A frequent veteran of walking units, he was once dubbed the refrigerator whisperer for quieting down a cantankerous old whirlpool. When he isn’t hearing voices from the appliances in his former unit, he can be reached, straightjacket and all, at jkern@multi-housingnews.com.

By: Jeffrey A. Kohn, Esq.

There have been a number of proposals to reduce or eliminate 26 U.S.C. § 163(h) of the Internal Revenue Code, which currently allows home mortgage interest to be deducted for federal tax purposes (the “Mortgage Interest Deduction”) subject to certain limitations. Currently, most taxpayers that elect to itemize may deduct the interest on their mortgages on their federal income tax returns.  There are two important limitations on the Mortgage Interest Deduction: (1) the deduction is limited to interest on debts secured by a principal residence or a second home and (2) interest is deductible on only the first $1 million of debt used for acquiring, constructing, or substantially improving the residence (as well as an extra $100,000 in certain cases).

If the Mortgage Interest Deduction is eliminated, the most immediate and direct effect will likely be that, compared to the current environment and assuming everything remains equal, renting will become more attractive compared to buying for typical homeowners who would have financed their house/condominium purchase with mortgage debt. This is because there will no longer be a tax benefit to owning a house/condominium and carrying a mortgage and therefore after-tax cost of owning a house/condominium would increase significantly for many would-be homeowners. This change should be particularly beneficial for multifamily owners that have units that are decent substitutes for homes and condominiums and that attract renters that would otherwise be in a position to own a house/condominium but are also considering renting an apartment unit.  And, because it takes real assets to be able to purchase a home in the current environment, the likely immediate affect will be to drive up demand for higher end multi-family units that are good substitutes for houses/condominiums. Because of this increased demand, rental rates would be expected to increase for higher end multi-family units will (and prices and demand for houses/condominiums will presumably decrease). However, even though high end unit rental rates would be expected to increase the most, other types of multi-family units would also be expected to see increased demand and presumably increased rental rates, although perhaps the affect will be less dramatic.

Jeffrey A. Kohn, Esq. specializes in real estate and business law. Mr. Kohn currently practices with Halling + Sokol LLP and previously practiced with Manatt, Phelps & Phillips LLP. He can be reached at (310) 277-2080 or jkohn@hallingsokol.com.  Mr. Kohn welcomes questions and feedback.

 

This article has been prepared for general informational purposes. It is not and should not be construed to be legal advice. Transmission of the information in this article is not intended to create, and receipt does not constitute, an attorney-client relationship. The information herein is not a substitute for obtaining legal advice from a qualified attorney licensed in your state. Pursuant to the rules of certain jurisdictions this article may contain or constitute attorney advertising.

 

I’m a second-generation American. My parents both came here from immigrant families that probably would have been denied entry if not for the fact that they arrived here around 1908. I come from a long line of renters (and a couple of very colorful characters who resided for a time at Sing-Sing and some other places for trying to make a living in some non-traditional ways). Renting was, in most respects, the norm in those days, and the vast majority of immigrant families either lived with relatives that had previously entered the country and found housing, or rented tenement flats or small, what were called front rooms.

Over the years I heard a lot of stories about where my relatives lived and even visited some locales, although most of the buildings are long gone, now occupied by much higher density uses like office and apartment buildings, and in one instance a giant hospital complex. Like most in my generation, as baby boomers we are really the first to live in conventional single-family, owner-occupied homes on a mass scale. Part of what makes this interesting to me as a demographer is the fact that the immigrant creed was to try to find success in some way, and get “out.” To say that someone got out and succeeded was actually a commentary on the idea of leaving the sometimes crowded and squalid living conditions in tenements and very dense apartment houses and move to what was considered a higher quality of life area. Oddly enough, it didn’t come to mean buying a home of your own until much later, perhaps in the 1940s and 1950s, the advent of the often called “new American family.”

Fast forward to 2009, about 100 years past when my intrepid family first discovered the hot dogs and corned beef in the delis of the lower east side of Manhattan, along with the character of their neighborhood shtetl. (Shtetl is a Yiddish word that doesn’t really translate directly in English, but it means a sense of being a part of a Jewish town or village, formerly found in Eastern Europe, which is where my family originated). I had occasion to spend what turned out to be my last Thanksgiving in a retirement center with my mom and about 300 mostly elderly senior citizen warriors. You might find that term funny, but if you could have seen how these people dispensed with their canes and walkers and voraciously threw themselves into the holiday meal, you’d know the term was a fit. And after a couple of turns through the line and the pies were all gone, the stories would start and I then learned from some of the residents that in their earlier years they had been immigrants, some had bought land and built what are now some landmark properties, and with little fanfare they recounted what had been the culture of renting, of families staying together in a building for over 25 years in some instances, when rents were both a matter of pride and a badge of honor. Rent increases, while not unheard of, were vastly slower in those days, born out of the necessity of the re-industrialization of this country and the fantastic increase in productivity that generally kept prices stable. Salary increases, when a family was making $25 a week were just enough to put food on the table and keep the landlord happy.

Now, as I look to this year’s Thanksgiving gathering of about 25 people in the same room in a house in the suburbs, I find myself thinking about my ancestors and relatives who celebrated holidays the same way, in their rented flat, with most of them still actually living in the three-room apartment. It gives pause in thinking about the dynamics of our industry, to push rents and build new buildings and try to deliver lifestyle along with shtetl, in places that are becoming the new urban enclaves. In some ways, I think my great grandfather, who I was named for, would have been amused by all of it. He never had much use for owning a house, “Something to break, something to fix, and who wants to buy a used house?” he would always say. As a house painter, he saw the world through a rainbow of colors he applied to other people’s homes. For him, an apartment was a home.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family, and may you honor the memory of our renter nation past by thinking about them, even for a few minutes. I think they would have liked that.

Jack Kern is our Accidental Economist and the research editor of Commercial Property Executive and Multi-Housing News. Usually he writes pretty informative and funny stuff. We’re going to have a talk with him about this one. In the meantime, please feel free to read this column to your family and friends. We think renters are pretty special too!

Sometimes you get to meet people in this business that really surprise you. Being on the inquisitive end of research, I’m always observational instead participative, so I notice details many would consider non-important (Probably one of my most irritating qualities). That’s why I wanted to tell you about Mack the Knife, the Chicago Chop House and how you get professional basketball players to lease from you.

Picture it: Chicago, land of governors and gangsters, where a well-placed bribe is a lot like a bet, you never quite know how it’s going to turn out. Chicago in winter is unlike any other place on the planet (people from Siberia visit Chicago to learn how to survive). Where else can you count the number of rope assisted walks from your apartment to work or to the Fox & Obel. And one wind blown day, after a round of apartment reviews and asset visits I met Mack the Knife. Fashion found a friend in

Mack, and his Bruno Magli shoes and Christian Dior suits were perfectly cut to his medium frame. Mack had a way with renters, and his closing ration was an astonishing 90 percent. I found I liked Mack and immediately set out to learn what he seemed to know but was so uncomfortable teaching others. After the snow let up a bit, and the night sky illuminated with thousands of twinkling lights, the reflections from cars on Michigan Avenue, we headed over towards West Ontario near Dearborn Street, destined for the legendary Chicago Chop House, probably the finest restaurant in the city. Working for a REIT in those days made the cost of the meal easy to expense, explaining it away as everything I had spent the entire week I was there in one meal. Mack was anxious to tell me about his latest lease deal, that he had personally toured and then signed a professional basketball player from the Chicago Bulls to the penthouse apartment, at a cool $10,000 per month. He laughed when he told the story because this millionaire kid, one of the game’s best, had no credit and needed a co-signer despite his astronomical salary. The player laughed it off and his hard working mom, a nurse in the local hospital co-signed the lease. Mack taught me something about human nature and the way that this business works. It isn’t about the paint color, the fancy furniture in the theater or the clubhouse, fitness center or guest kitchen. It isn’t even about having the perfect location, something Mack knew from the ferry noise near the property and the constant traffic outside the north and east facing windows. It’s about Mack, or more appropriately how Mack became their best friend and adviser when he met them. Between being dressed impeccably every day, and Mack had more suits, ties and brightly polished shoes than anyone I know, to the easy smile, Mack exuded the kind of trust that made you love the guy. If he were a professional athlete people would probably have lined up to cheer for him.

I realized that when Mack was first showing me the building, we never stopped talking, and I never saw his back. He was always just ahead, leading down the corridors but attentively listening or asking something, leaning sideways to being sure I was looking at him when he spoke. He was, just like Mackey in the song, looking for the right moment. His sense of timing, his grasp of people skills and his youthful exuberance (at 25 years of age) were all impressive. What I didn’t learn until much later was that he was also finishing a Master’s degree full time while also working full time, juggling both commitments.

Consumer research tells us that to make the sale, to in essence get the lease signed, you have to deliver a price advantage, a value proposition and a positive close. What Mack showed was that we lease to people who like to be treated with respect, who develop a sense of trust and belonging and are proud of their decisions. Not something that comes across in a lot of brochures and advertising or poorly conceived branding statements (are they all really luxury apartments?).

It has been many years since I last saw Mack, although we did keep in touch for a while and he would regularly send me almost James Bond-like market reports. Earlier this year I went back to the building, once owned by a REIT, and now a local powerhouse and asked about Mack.

Without hesitation, and with apologies to the Godfather movie franchise, they said Mackey sleeps with the fishes. It turns out he became a submariner and is an oceanographer in the Navy. I’m sure somehow, even undersea, he’s charming them too.

Jack Kern is our Accidental Economist and publishes dispatches from the front, blogs and occasionally factual articles in Mult-housing News and Commercial Property Executive magazines. You may know him as the voice of Flip the Bird, in a short lived career in animated features, or as a singer-songwriter with a world record for clearing a room. Either way, he’d love to hear from you, except from the publisher of Mack the Knife, copyright Warner/Chappell Music, Inc. Mack’s, we mean Jack’s at jkern@multi-housingnews.com or 301-601-1900.

In an article that appeared this week in the Wall Street Journal, not necessarily the most accurate of sources, to be sure (hello, Rupert, lay off anybody today?), there is a bellwether article garnering little notice, but certainly worthy of more attention than Rick Perry got about forgetting the names of the federal agencies he was going to eliminate.

When it comes to the annals of fund raising history, few can match the talent, wits and connections of the Carlyle Group, so named for the Carlyle Grand Cafe in Washington, D.C., according to my conversation years ago with a senior partner there. The roster of pundits and staff members there reads almost like a White House Alumni phone directory, so the headline article in the WSJ seemed oddly out of place. Essentially, “Carlyle Cut Fees to Sell New Fund,” goes on the explain that in order to raise a significant $2.3 billion dollar fund, Carlyle had to offer unique initiatives and terms that are very much out of the mainstream for how these deals get done.

This isn’t even the largest deal to close, according to the WSJ, but fifth behind Lone Star, Morgan Stanley, Blackstone and Beacon, two of which raised over twice as much as Carlyle, although the terms weren’t disclosed. What passes for a successful fund raise then, begins to point out what may be obvious to you, why?

Softening in real estate demand isn’t unusual and we’re in the midst of a cycle, where capital allocation and preferred rates have to match the availability of product at a price that works. Given the necessity to mark to market, at least when you’re buying, if not holding, and looking for in place cash flows to grow, you’d expect very attractive returns in the intermediate term. What we have here in an indication of the declining faith of institutional capital in the ability of the sector to perform and tougher standards for compensation, fees and carried interest. By some accounts, the Carlyle fund has cut some fees in half and reduced the basis for its carried interest much more severely than any fund previously, once again suggesting that size doesn’t insulate you from risk.  The global expectation for returns from commercial property investment continues to become much more conservative. With the continuing unrest in Europe over monetary policy and the seeming inability of the U.S. Federal Reserve to arrive at a sustainable policy response, the indications for commercial real estate, most notably apartments, large regional mixed use projects and special purpose redevelopment are clear. There is little new capital to find its way into development, and existing pricing power will remain intact for the foreseeable future. As long as there is uncertainty in the capital stack, cap rates will remain compressed and new developments, most notably in constrained and infill locations will emerge slowly. Carlyle proved finally what has been said privately for the past year, that plentiful capital is running scared and new investment will cost even more than before.

Jack Kern, our Accidental Economist, is the research editor for Commercial Property Executive and Multihousing News and has actually been to the Carlyle Grand Cafe a couple of times. While not a piano player himself, he succeeded in saying, “play it again, Sam,” to a guy named Elliot, who promptly called him an idiot. If not for the fact the martini was perfect, he might have been offended. You can reach or insult Jack at jkern@multi-housingnews.com or by calling 301.601.1900.

Renters are a pretty curious bunch, and between checking out the latest and greatest buildings and comparing amenities with their friends, they use smart phones and social media to get information. Being in research, an integral part of gaining perspective is to, in essence, act and think like a renter. Emptying my head of such non-renter notions as cutting the grass and painting the deck, I recently began to investigate the potential of using smart phones to get information about renting in a community without calling them. For this test, I used my recently acquired Samsung Galaxy II 4G phone, something very useful if you use phones a lot while being away from the office and you happen to have a PhD in electrical engineering. The phone does more things than I thought were possible, and while my litmus test is the usual, “Hello, can you hear me?”, or “How about now—is that better?”, this phone actually talks to you. I would imagine it’s only a matter of time and some application development of an app that will tell me where I should live, how much rent I can pay and how to sign a lease.

 

I decided to pick a community at random, and to keep this fair, made up a name so I don’t inadvertently prejudice the outcome of the test. I went to the phone and said, “Rent apartment, St. Louis, Low Rent.” The phone returned a number of apartment communities and I was impressed. The seek-and-sort capability was pretty impressive. I then selected one, called Cardinal Crest, and found myself looking at a number of floor plans with a nicely laid out screen and an interface designed to encourage you to call their rental office. That immediately took away from the online experience I assumed their site was designed to have, but playing along, I said, “Call rental office.” The phone rang three times and someone answered saying “Cardinals.” I explained that I was inquiring about their apartments and was told that in fact I had called a local hash house and burger joint, apparently very popular in St. Louis, and they had no idea about available apartments. I just assumed the phone was working strangely (remember Apple’s original ill-fated attempt with voice recognition?), so being the investigative sleuth that I am, I simply selected the number in the website and called again.

 

The phone rings and it’s “Cardinals,” which by this time I recognize the gruff voice I spoke to earlier and once again, fries, yes, apartments, no.

 

So far as this process goes, having floor plans but a misdirected number probably happens more often than I would have believed. While the culprit turned out to be someone remote call forwarding to the wrong number, what was clear was that for the rest of the test, there wasn’t any efficient way to actually use a smart phone to get much useful information, with the exception of scanning the QR codes on some ads or selecting some very newly created websites. QR codes are going to be a big benefit for apartment rental operations because it allows the scanning source to then access a lot of information, including ultimately an application and a lease draft. That would be real progress.

 

Searching out the perfect place to live, at least in St. Louis then, where seemingly everything has the name Cardinals in it may have proven futile as a planning tool for an out of towner, but the technology is rapidly catching up. Perhaps the most important part of the test turned out to be that wrongly dialed number. As an experienced researcher and professional curmudgeon I can report that the burgers and fries really were worth the miss step, and that gruff voice belonged to the nicest waitress I’ve had in a long time.

 

Jack Kern is the research editor of Commercial Property Executive and Multihousing News, and life long member of Cardinal nation, a fanatical group of followers of the St. Louis Cardinals. Since the ‘Cards won the world series he plans to wear his ball cap to every real estate event for a year. You can’t miss him. When not dispensing advice about markets and opportunities, you can reach him at jkern@multi-housingnews.com or by calling 301.601.1900.

Apartment rents have been a bright spot in an otherwise dreary economic outlook. The last time I had a conversation with anyone from Greece, he was a taxi driver taking me to LaGuardia. We had a very spirited conversation about Greek politics along with his insistence the speed limit signs in Manhattan were only advisory and didn’t apply to taxi drivers. An interesting fact that came out of the trip to the airport, white knuckled, seat-belt tightening aside, was that people in Greece apparently feel a sense of comfort that their system, however disorganized and prominently dysfunctional, takes care of the populace.

It kind of reminds me of New Jersey, but that’s another column. I think I understand more now about the Greek protests and the lack of willingness on the part of the citizens to give up hard fought benefits.

Greece, while not a major trading partner, is a bell-weather state of the European Union. Italy, on the other extreme, can be a problem. So much of what happens in the U.S. is now affected by world events, and economically we want the European Union to be healthy. It does appear, however that the E.U. is headed into a recession of their own and Italy, and potentially economic powerhouse Germany, have seen meaningful slowdowns. While the current picture in U.S. export activity is better than it’s ever been, it won’t last if the E.U. can’t find a way out of this debt crisis. The fundamentals of world trade are beginning to cause slowdowns in employment growth in the U.S., not only in trade, transportation and utilities but in the many multiplier industries that create jobs beneficial to renters. My own forecasts continue to show a slowing demand, not based on seasonality but on lack of growth in mid-market employment so important to this industry. For the moment, one of two likely solutions loom ahead, either the finance ministers of the affected countries accept significant reforms and control their spending, or the U.S. somehow regains economic strength and pushes rent growth to higher levels. With a little bit of foresight and lots of luck, we might just get both.

Jack Kern is the research editor of Mult-housing News and Commercial Property Executive magazines and the lead singer in a country western band call “Pond Scum Acres.” The band is working on an album of songs about the E.U. He can reached at jkern@multi-housingnews.com or 301.601.1900.

The president presented his proposals to Congress last evening highlighting both the opportunity to make changes in job growth and the potential derision by the republicans. Despite a lot of wrangling over who is to blame or what sort of spending or stimulus would be effective, the president is offering a plan that is very similar to his previous shovel ready proposition, suggesting that the country can build its way out of this economic morass. The plan fundamentally offers support to manufacturing, construction and municipal spending, all areas important in the apartment industry. While it may be too early to know if this will in fact pass, the mood in the Congress, based on comments by House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), seem to indicate a more congenial view that the president’s comments are worthy of consideration, a decidedly different perspective from before. It seems now that the Congress knows that the public is watching, anticipating more backlash if they don’t act.

The apartment industry will benefit from this interim step, especially in light of the absence of any game changing legislative proposals about homeownership. Given the fiscal sensitivity of extending the payroll tax holiday into 2012 and seeking $1.5 trillion in deficit reduction by year end, apartment owners can feel confident that renters will stay in properties longer, and some limited, but meaningful rent growth will still be evident through this year.

Economically we are still in a trough. I have been suggesting that we’re not heading into an additional recession, and I maintain that forecast. While a number of indicators are flat or trending wildly, we’re still a long way off from the economy getting much slower. In fact, from the perspective of apartment owners, the next phase of the pricing and revenue cycle looks very positive. Pricing power may be slower, but it’s still in the hands of owners.

Jack Kern is the Managing Director of Kern Investment Research, LLC, based in Germantown, Maryland. The firm has an enviable record in calling recessionary and recovery cycles. Just to be on the safe side, Jack has consulted a plastic surgeon about changing his appearance and installing a device to start his car remotely just in case he’s wrong on this one.

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